TIP Missives
Clash of the Titans: Reader Responses to MBAs in I-O Psychology
Presented below are the responses I received to my article: "MBAs in I-O
psychology: Barbarians at the gate or allies against organizational
inertia" published in the October 1999 issue of TIP. Some comments
are slightly edited while others are presented whole. It was interesting to note
that many who responded felt I was hostile to MBAs. This was not intended. Many
felt that there is enough work for both MBAs and PhDs to work effectively.
William M. Verdi, PhD
Long Island Railroad
WMVERDI@lirr.org
***
I am an industrial psychologist in South Africa and work in a manufacturing
environment, believe it or not, as a factory manager. I will be finishing
a 4-year MBA program through the University of South Africa (it's
actually called a Master's in Business Leadership), next year (in 2000). I was a
management consultant, before taking up my current position subsequent to
a successful project at this company.
I believe that IO psychologists are too hung up in HR-related
issues/interventions and are thus missing out on the REAL contributions
they could make in the fields of BPR, TQM, TOC and other related change
interventions that MBAs normally drive. IO psychologists, if they were
more au fait with the workings of business and strategy, could be far
more effective in designing and implementing appropriate change interventions,
than MBAs. IO psychologists should not be looking at MBAs as intruders in their
field of expertise, but should skill themselves better, outside of HR, to
become a threat to MBAs in their own field. We, as IO psychologists, are
too narrow minded in the application of our knowledge and expertise. We
should become the innovators of change management (because it all happens
through people) and be a lot more assertive in our marketing efforts. The
key, however, is to have proper business skills so that we not only
better understand the playing field, but also recognize the opportunities
out there.
I once read a slogan "the best professionals make themselves highly
skilled with the most powerful tools." This is where our future
lies! We should have continuous education, yes, but not in clinical
psychology, rather in business psychology.
Quo Vadis
Gideon de Kock
gdkipsy@relay01.mweb.co.za
***
As one who has had an MBA for 15+ years and is now in the process of working
on a doctoral dissertation in organizational behavior I did have some thoughts
on your article.
First, from your first paragraph, you seem to define the practitioner's realm
of I-O psychology pretty broadly (i.e., HRM, SHRM, management consulting, change
management, etc.). Especially with respect to change management and management
consulting, other academic disciplines, including those from business schools,
also would consider those areas to be rightly theirs. If MBAs are entering
the field and succeeding, they must be bringing something to the table that I-O
practitioners aren't. Only rarely do I ever remember an I-O student, or someone
from another area of psychology, coming over to the business school to take a
HR/IR course or another business course.
Second, I have to take mild issue with your comment that MBAs are trained to
be specialists in business issues. The MBA degree is a generalist degree,
although one may select one or more functional areas to focus in. And among
those areas at the university are human resources management, organizational
behavior, and strategic management. I would be interested to know how many I-O
practitioners have had at least one course in strategic management, marketing,
or finance. You end the third paragraph by asking if MBA graduates are skilled
enough to perform I-O related work. Perhaps an equally interesting question: Are
I-O graduates skilled enough to perform business-related work?
As a teaching assistant for MBA courses, I see students come into the core OB
course thinking this is just "touchy feely" stuff, but many of them,
especially those who have worked for a few years, leave with some respect for
behavioral science, and subsequently sign up for elective courses.
I agree completely with two of your observations. First that some sort of
convergence between management and social science departments is occurring.
Second, your comment that no solitary school of thought or training can
adequately address so many current business issues. Increasingly complex
business problems will require integrated solutions drawing from different
disciplinary approaches. I think that I-O (and other social science)
practitioners and academics would be best served by building bridges toward
MBAs. They increasingly do appreciate what we can bring to the table. In the
long run, cooperation will be a better strategy than competition.
Joseph T. Banas
John M. Olin School of Business
Washington University
BANASJ@OLIN.WUSTL.EDU
***
I spent 15 years in government before taking a position with a Fortune 250
company 3 years ago. I have worked with MBAs and MPAs in both settings. My
experiences have been that MBA folks have been trained to look at things from an
entrepreneurial viewpoint. They are not concerned with the long- term stability
of their efforts, have little understanding or concern for analysis, other than
the bottom line, and think the be-all and end-all is the MBTI.
To practice in this I-O area I found myself in classes with MBA candidates,
but did not find MBA folks in my research, testing and assessment, motivational
theory or philosophy classes, which is where our basic outlook on life is
formed. While they can certainly be allies, I believe that APA, APS, SIOP and
other groups should begin fighting to assure quality in what we dofor
instance, requiring licensure for engaging in psychological testing, and being
sure that MBAs, MAs, MPAs and so forth , have the necessary training and state
of mind to use these instruments in a positive and constructive manner.
Daniel Masden
DMasden@templeinland.com
***
I couldn't resist responding to your article. I got my MBA first, loved the
HR side of it then got my MS in I-O next. I've been working in the technical
training field ever since. It's definitely been an asset to be able to
understand the mumbo-jumbo jargon speak that is so easily bandied about by the
finance and accounting types I think there is a middle ground where both
fields can learn from each other. We, in the I-O profession, need to be smart
enough to understand the language they speak so we can separate the chaff from
the wheat.
Terry Ritchie
Jardon and Howard Technologies, Inc.
Tritchie@jht.com
***
I am a SIOP member with a PhD in clinical psychology and formerly an Air
Force psychologist. My first thought is that I-O psychology is experiencing
something akin to what clinical psychology began to encounter years ago (and
which has become a major threat in recent years): the entry of a diverse
assortment of professional, paraprofessionals and quasiprofessionals into the
field In terms of the I-O field, I believe that a similar trend has been
occurring, perhaps on a smaller scale. Fortunately for I-O, the nature of some
aspects of the field will limit this. The nature of psychometrics, advanced
multivariate statistics, and other technical areas is not as conducive to a
proliferation of MBAs and others trying to work in these areas. Few probably
want to! However, the "softer" areas of I-O will, I believe be just as
vulnerable to "invasion" as the clinical field has been.
I have noticed a similar defensive reaction among some I-O psychologists
regarding "keeping people out" of I-O. I believe that this will be
futile, and possibly counterproductive. With respect to MBAs specifically, I
don't know the extent of the perceived problem. It seems to me that not only do
most MBAs get little training in research, statistics, the scientific method,
and so on (as you point out), I doubt that very many are even interested in
working in jobs that require advanced skills in these areas. There will be a
few who find their way into I-O related areas, perhaps mostly in the Human
Resources area or in OD consulting. But if they cannot add value to their
organization in these capacities, they will not be there for long. If they can
add value, then more power to them.
I have heard from SIOP members that there is a perception that the
"invasion" also includes clinical psychologists, social psychologists
and various others who were not specifically trained in I-O. My feeling about
this is, again, it is inevitable. Guilds are out: skills (and perception of
skills by those who control the funds) are all that matter now.
Dr. Eric G. Carbone
ecarbone@terry.uga.edu
***
I am a reformed MBA. Oh, I started out as a "pure" PhD, but soon
discovered there was a lot about working and managing (and being promoted) in
organizations that I-O hadn't prepared me for. The combination has been
absolutely unbeatable for enhancing my credibility within business, my
management performance and my ability to make changes in organizations that
would be beyond the authority of a "staff" social scientist
Expanding what one knows, and hopefully one's effectiveness, can be a real
advantage in this environment. My own observation is that effective
practitioners and consultants understand the business culture and use it to help
reach their own personal and professional objectives. MBAs are a fact of life
(although the golden age of the MBA is clearly past). As professional
psychologists we must use their skills as a resource in our efforts to craft
organizations that are both more productive and more satisfying to work in.
Rick Baird
rickb@gemstone.com
***
In response to your article on "MBAs: Barbarians," I found that
several of your points accurately depict the training that MBAs receive (a focus
on accounting, economics, finance, etc.). However, as in any field, there are
various contributions these different training approaches provide to
organizations. It would be advantageous if the two disciplines could work
together to provide even more efficiency and utility to organizations.
Your article automatically assumes that MBAs lack a diverse training in other
areas such as I-O or the scientific study of human beings. Consequently, is it
appropriate to generalize that anyone who has an MBA will automatically
implement solutions based upon some financial theory or bottom line? To provide
the best value and efficiency to companies, everyone should be well versed in a
wide range of solutions which can aid companies in meeting their objectives and
goals. Therefore is the question really I-O versus MBA? Maybe both programs
should evaluate the breadth and depth of their training. Any discipline can
become too narrow in its focus. Nevertheless, my experience is that more and
more people are becoming more educated in both areas to provide the best and
most effective services to companies. Consequently, maybe the question should be
"MBAs and I-O Psychologists: How we can work together to create more
efficient and effective organizations?"
Sherry Vidal Brown
svidal@bayou.uh.edu
***
Lanning v. Septa: Where Do We Go Now?
Dear Allan/TIP Editor:
I am shocked and concerned to read in the October issue of TIP (p.
138) that the Third Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that employers must set
screening test cut-off scores at minimum levels necessary for successful job
performance. I assume most SIOP members are also concerned.
Such a decision renders all screening procedures irrelevant, as some current
employees, who are "successful" by virtue of their currently employed
status, will have very low scores on virtually any pre-employment screening
process, test, or procedure of any value (ability to spread people across a
job-relevant psychological dimension). A reasonable decision by the court would
have been requiring cut-off scores on tests or other screening procedures with
adverse impact to be set a level not to exceed the 30th percentile for scores by
current employees.
The Court's opinion that a correlation of .107 is "far too low to be
meaningful" is also a concern, for one can give examples where such
"low" correlations are statistically significant and provide
information supporting the validity of a screening instrument. Furthermore, in
my experience, one can see very meaningful effects of psychological
pre-employment tests used for screening applicants, such as dramatic reduction
in heavy truck accidents, even in the absence of any yet-discovered
statistically significant correlations between available individual worker
performance data and test scores.
As editor, can you suggest ways that SIOP as a professional organization can
effectively respond to this Court decision, such as by a letter or paper
addressed to the Court and/or to EEOC in Washington?
I was comforted briefly by an attorney friend who pointed out that a Third
District Court decision does not have power in my district (the ninth). But I
think this/these decisions/opinions could set a very damaging precedent if left
uncorrected.
Sincerely,
William McConochie, PhD
TestMaster, Inc.
tstmastr@rio.com
***
To Every Season, Learn, Learn, Learn
Michael:
I just read your "Practice Network" column in TIP on the
web. While the focus was on lifelong learning, you again point out the different
camps of I-O psychology. Early in my career I jumped into I-O-HRM (as I believe
you call it). I have been an avid reader all my life, BUT what I read is what is
referred to as the "popular press." I read books like The Fifth
Discipline, The Living Organization, Learning Organizations,
and so forth. When I first started attending SIOP conferences, most of the
participants were academics and I quit attending. Now, many years later, I have
started attending SIOP conferences again. It is still more academic.
We will have to be lifelong learners, whether we are I-O psychologists or
blue collar workers, if we want to continue to grow and make contributions. I,
for one, have started to look at how we can help people become more effective
learners. I am very interested in learning more about this area and would love
to talk with others who share the same interest. Obviously, I liked your article
and it sparked interest on my part. Thanks.
Oliver H. London
Director of Training and Learning
Congressional Management Foundation
Oliver@c-m-f.org
***
Y2K-ing the Day Away
Dear Dr. Waclawski,
I just want to let you know that your column on Y2K is highly enjoyable. For
all of your time putting together an article that's not exactly
academic/business in nature and making it so interesting to read, you deserve a
note of congratulation. My wife has worked on a Y2K project for a major
corporation last year. So I know Y2K is a serious business issue. However, the
angle of your article approaches this issue in such a way that grounds the whole
article in our daily experience and makes your readers aware of so many
absurdities and irrationalities in our daily life when examined through the
context of the Y2K hype. The inclusion of two survey respondents' comments are a
nice touch as well.
I may as well add that your article creates such favorable impression among
your readers because your voice is vividly personal. Although I have never met
you, it seems one can have a gleam of your interesting personality through the
article. Perhaps this contributes the readability of your article. Well done and
congratulations.
Wex C. Li
Wonderlic, Inc.
wex.li@wonderlic.com
***
OD: The Undiscovered Country
Dear Ron:
Please send me a copy of the OD case study you mentioned in your letter to Karen
May in the last issue of TIP Missives. Also, I would like to add my
2-cents worth to your comments about the field of OD.
I have been working in the OD profession for almost 20 years with a master's
degree in community and clinical psychology. Much of my work is in
organizational change interventions and strategic planning. When I was trained
at Temple University, back then, we got an excellent training in the systems
approach. In 1995, I decided to go back to get my doctorate in I-O and clinical
psychology (a special dual program) at CSPP (California School of Professional
Psychology_San Diego). In our I-O program, a strong emphasis is given to
selection, psychometrics, measurement and personnel psychology (though the OD
approach also exists). The clinical aspect continues to be of great importance
as well as many workplace dysfunctions, which can often be understood with a
clinical eye. The counseling skills are also extremely useful for the workplace
without having to get into psychodynamic dialogue (which I personally feel does
NOT belong in the workplace). Though people thought I was crazy, I personally
have found the education that I am receiving in all three areas to be extremely
useful. Since I continue to work while I am going to school, I am constantly
putting into practice information that I wasn't trained in before. I especially
think that having a foundation in the industrial as well as the organizational
side of psychology is mandatory for giving the best to an organizational client.
I was about the only one in the dual program when I first entered in 1995. Now
there are more and more students entering each year and choosing to go this
route.
My point is that while we are bound to have an expertise in specific areas, I
think that the best organizational "clinician" needs to have a well
rounded understanding of both the soft and hard aspects of I-O psychology.
Again, I enjoyed your comments! Only 2 more years to go before I get that
doctorate (I hope!).
Sincerely,
Joan Pastor
Joan Pastor and Associates, International
JPTPSYCHE@aol.com
***
Dear Dr. Shepps,
If I understand what you wrote, you are saying that what is being taught in
today's I-O programs might not be properly preparing future generations of I-O
practitioners. This is dangerous because it may make them less marketable as
organizations seek consultation and assistance elsewhere. I am finishing up my
doctoral requirements for the PsyD in organizational psychology from Rutgers
University. As you can see from the title, it is clearly on the "O"
side of the I-O scale. Looking back on my graduate education, I feel that I have
made the better choice than if I had chosen an I-O program. They (the graduate
I-O programs that I am familiar with) were too focused on the "I"
side. My course work here included experiential group dynamics, organizational
diagnosis, and other classes that helped me develop a skill set and a way of
carrying myself that I believe is critical for this type of work. To make myself
more marketable, I conducted a quantitatively empirical dissertation to make me
more familiar with the traditional research role. I believe that this
combination will make me more marketable and more capable of understanding my
clients' needs. I agree with you that more of our colleagues need to cultivate
these "O" side skills.
Best regards,
Stephen Pick
stephenpick72@hotmail.com
***
You Can Call Me "J"
Hi Allan,
Glad to see that I'm not the only one getting mysteriously
"friendly" notes from a "J." I've been receiving about two a
year for 2 years now. They were
all postmarked from CaliforniaSanta Clara, or Santa Ana, I can't recall
exactly. Thanks.
Richard Kopelman
REKopelman@aol.com
***
I just read your TIP article on the latest in new-wave marketing
techniques. I, too, have been contacted by the ubiquitous "J." I've
received several missives from this "person" (who I'm sure cares
deeply about my personal welfare and development) but the last one went too far.
It was a course on time management and the headline was something to the effect
of "Learn How to Get a Life!" Now, I'll admit that I spend a lot of it
in the office or on planes, but in my opinion I most definitely do have a life.
I thought it highly insensitive that my friend "J" might insinuate
otherwise. Imagine making such a slight and not even giving me a home phone
number so I could call and cry on his/her shoulder!
Here's a suggestion: How about if we all return these sleazy ads with a
hand-written post-it note that says "Dear J: Would love to come to the
seminar and see you again. Hope you can make time to have me over for dinner. By
the way, I'm a bit short on cash so hope you have room for the wife and I. Bunny
Hugs and Kisses, K." Just a thought!
Sue Halsell
SHalsell@Equilon.com
***
Dear Allan,
I had to respond to your comments about receiving an article that seemed like
it was from someone you know. This type of mailing has plagued my company for
years now. I don't know how they got our client list, but about 4 years ago, a
similar mailing was sent out to three clients of mine that I had just finished
working with that year, and the articles the marketers picked (some of which
were perceived as insulting by the client) even matched the type of work I had
done with them. Unfortunately, with my name being "Joan Pastor" and
many favorite clients calling me "JP," I can't tell you the headaches
this has caused over the years! Even the Chief of Police I worked with received
one, and there is apparently nothing they can do about it.
Last comment: it seems to come in waves. None of my clients had received an
article for a few years and just recently a new vendor of mine contacted me with
one! A coincidence? I don't know (Sigh!). I would give ANY
THING to find these people and ring their necks. All I know is that the post
mark is Santa Ana, California. If anyone in SIOP knows anything more about this,
please let us know. Thanks!
Joan Pastor
Joan Pastor and Associates, International
JPTPSYCHE@aol.com
January 2000 Table of Contents | TIP Home | SIOP Home